I: When you went into the camps, would you go in with interpreters?

EC: Yes. I went in there with the interpreters, so we would talk to groups of people with the interpreters there. Also, I worked with the NGO’s as well. And so that was the early part of my job. The second part was the repatriation program that I was partly in charge [of]. That was also a very difficult task, because we were people putting people onto aircraft that they didn’t want to get onto. And so, it was a very different side to the story then. But luckily, for my part, I’ve been to Vietnam myself. I’ve been on a number or flights taking people back [to Vietnam]. Fortunately for myself, there wasn’t much resistance. The first mandatory return was about two years before me and it was a terrible experience. They did it in the middle of the night. All the police in riot gear. They went in there [to the detention centres] as if it was a major gun battle. So the police had on their riot gear. They were in the middle of the night, they woke up everybody else and took everyone by force and took them in their trucks and loaded them in their aircraft. The next day, we had really bad press. The international community was up in arms.

We stopped that after the first time for a few years. Until such a time when we actually managed to convince the international community, that there really was no other alternative. Unless [the international community] were willing to take them on. If they [the international community] were not willing to take them on as refugees, we would need to send them back. Because of course, America was the major stumbling block. They didn’t want that. They didn’t want the refugees either. So from my point of view, that was very unfair for the US Government to oppose or object to what we did. But at the same time, they didn’t want to take on the refugees as they regarded them as non-refugees. But [at the same time], they didn’t want us to send them back. So that was a very difficult decision that we faced internationally. And there were a lot of obstacles in our way. I think mainly, at the end of the day, it was the ‘MIA’ (Missing in Action) list that was very concerning [to the US]. [That was] the military personnel that were missing in Vietnam. I think they [the US] were trying to get their people back, but the Vietnamese Government wasn’t very helpful or cooperative on those fronts. I think at the end of the day, maybe because the Vietnamese Government was a bit more forthcoming with the MIA list. And so the Americans were a little bit more willing, then, for us to send people back.

Another thing that actually in our view, led to a lot of people in the latter part of the 1990’s, to flee Vietnam, was the economic conditions there. They were not good. People just couldn’t make a living. And the principal cause for that was the American embargo on Vietnam. Nobody was allowed to trade with Vietnam, and how could a country survive without international trade. So the trade embargo was a very important element in our view, as to why there were so many people leaving the country. A lot of efforts were placed on that, to persuade the US to end the trade embargo. And eventually it ended, and improved the flow of people which receded.

During the first forced repatriation, the airport was in Kai Tak, the old airport, and so we regrouped all the returnees – I can’t remember from which camp. We regrouped the refugees and brought them to Kai Tak. And that was very early in the morning, about 4-5am, before the normal flight started. Then we put them in the terminal and were waiting for them to clear and go into the aircraft. At one point, [laughs] trouble started. I’m sure it was well planned, because they knew exactly what to do. And for our part, we were actually stunned and taken by surprise. One lady stripped off all her clothes in front of everyone, a lot of women suddenly took their clothes off. And all our policemen didn’t know what to do because they didn’t have any blankets. So they tried to find tablecloths and whatever material they could find to wrap around the ladies to try and stop them from stripping their clothes. So that was one episode on the first flight and the trouble [ensuing] when all the women stripped off their clothes. But I think we managed to get them to put their clothes back on and get back onto the flight and they [continued] without incident. And then they went to Vietnam. So that was the first flight. And so for all later flights, we actually equipped ourselves with blankets, just in case they did it again. We had a lot of blankets ready, anytime anyone wanted to strip themselves, we would use a blanket to cover them.

The second flight, I was involved with the Hei Ling Chau people. I had to get up at about 2am to get to Hei Ling Chau, which was an outlying island. I went there very early with the police and CSD people and the whole team went there. The night before, the camp management would separate these people and tell them, ‘look, you have been selected to return. So you need to pack up your belongings, you need to go to a separate camp, a separate hut and stay there’. I think most of the time, it went well. There wasn’t any trouble. No resistance. So they all packed their bags and stayed in different dormitories. And in the morning, we grouped them together, they had breakfast then we took them by ferry to Kai Tak. From there, we took them on the aircraft. And then, there would be hundreds of reporters. Hundreds, maybe 300 reporters, [were] lining up along the runway to witness the returnees’ process. Because after the first ‘bad’ one, we promised the international press that what we would do would be transparent.

We wouldn’t hide anything and we wouldn’t use any unnecessary force. We would only use force when it was necessary. We would allow the media to come and cover the event, to see how the repatriation process was being carried out. So in the morning, after grouping the returnees together, we went through the security screening and took them onto the aircraft, one by one. And then we engaged what we called a Hercules aircraft. The first time I had ever been onto a Hercules aircraft. It was one where, in the old days, they would carry the military supplies. You don’t get into the aircraft sideways – you get in at the back near the tail. And so we all went up the tail [of the aircraft]. All the seats were actually sideways. It was a very interesting experience, flying in a Hercules. [It was] very noisy. And we were together with the returnees, the camp management people, and also some counsellors. We needed counsellors to counsel some of the returnees who maybe emotional or cry a little bit. And we also had the Immigration people on board. Most of the time, on the flights I went on, there wasn’t too much trouble. At first, one or two may be reluctant to [return]. But then, after some counselling, they were willing to walk out on their own onto the aircraft.

Occasionally, I think I witnessed one or two returnees being carried onto the aircraft. One or two struggling returnees needed to be carried. We used the word, ‘helped’. We helped them along the way onto the aircraft. And that was how it was being done. Once the aircraft landed in Hanoi, I think most of them were quite resigned to the fact that their future lay back in their home. And so most of the time, they actually went down from the aircraft on their own. We didn’t need to carry them. Because one very important thing the Vietnamese Government insisted was that we should not use force. We shouldn’t be seen to be carrying them from the aircraft onto the tarmac. They must be seen to be walking out on their own, without being forced or pushed onto their own vehicles. If force was used, the Government wouldn’t accept them. You would have to take them back. There would be a big bus, waiting for them to get on board. So they could be sent to a ‘clearing centre’. At the clearing centre they would try to sort out which village they were from, to determine where to send them back to. They would need to spend a few days in these transit centres.

So it was a very challenging and very interesting time that I had to deal with.

I: Is there anything else [you want to add]?

EC: If I remember correctly, after I had left, the repatriation process was more difficult. Every time, the night before the repatriation we had to separate them. Because there would be a list, and you would have to tell them to pack their belongings for the move (from one hut to another).

I: How much notice did you give them?

EC: Not a lot of time. Because you don’t want [to give them] time to plan a resistance [against the repatriation]. So you just give them sufficient notice to pack their belongings then move to a different place where they would be grouped together.

I: Would you say a few hours [notice]?

EC: I can’t remember now. I think the night before, maybe after dinner, they would tell them, ‘look you will be going home so please go and pack your bags. And having packed your bags, you will need to move to a different hut and stay there for the night’.

I: And was it all kept silent in the camps?

EC: I think so. Otherwise if you give them too long a notice, they would be able to plan [a way out]. Most of the troubles occurred the night before [repatriation]. They would barricade themselves in their rooms and they wouldn’t want to leave the hut. Then the rest of the population then galvanised all the support and then said, ‘don’t go. Because resistance was later more fortified and more intensified, we had to appoint Justices of Peace (JP’s) to go into the camps to monitor the repatriation process to make sure no unnecessary force was used or mistreated. Because once there was resistance, force would be used. Once force was used, we would be answerable to the international community.

Our commitment was that no unnecessary force be used. But in the case of a big riot… you would need to stand up and defend your position and defend to the world, this is how we did it. We didn’t use unnecessary force, we only used force when we needed to and our actions were monitored by independent people from the community, to oversee the operation. So we engaged JP’s. They had to move into some – I’m not sure whether it was the night before [repatriation]. But definitely on the day of departure, they would be there as early as 3-4am. They would then monitor the whole process. They obviously wouldn’t go to Vietnam; their monitoring would stop at the aircraft. Then they would need to compile a report to the Governor, to say that they were there and whether there was any trouble. And if there was trouble, why was there trouble, how was it handled, was it handled reasonably well or not? Was unnecessary force used? If so, why [was it used]?

I: So the returnees were given notice the night before to gather their belongings, then they would be transferred to another camp?

EC: Not another camp, a dormitory within that camp. We won’t try different people from different camps. We would only focus on one, i.e. Whitehead Section 2. We would gather those people and move them to a different section within that camp. So they would be able to stay in there. Otherwise we wouldn’t be able to manage [the situation].

I: What happened next? Can you explain to me the procedure?

EC: And after they were grouped together in separate huts or dormitories, the next day, we would then ask them to leave. We would get them out the camp to go on a ferry. And we would take them to the airport.

I: Were they taken by a bus from the camp to the ferry?

EC: From the camp, they would be taken by bus to the ferry. And from the ferry, all the way to Kai Tak. And from Kai Tak, then they would be taken to a sort of hangar. Then they would go through the security process, to ensure that they had no weapons on them. And having done that, then they would go directly from the tarmac to the aircraft. And there would be lines of reporters watching the repatriation process.

I: From the time they left the detention centre to the time they get onto the aircraft, approximately how many hours?

EC: Actually, we would be there by about 4am at the latest. 3-4am. At 4am, we would reach Hei Ling Chau. So at about half past 4, if they would leave the place then whole process would end by about 7.30am.

I: That’s not that long.

EC: Because the aircraft needs to get away before the first flight leaves or arrives [at the airport]. Otherwise the runway would be [blocked]. So they can’t afford for the repatriation process to take such a long time.

EC: And then when we arrived in Vietnam, we would need to have a meeting with the Reception party. And we would hand over all the papers, the people and lists to them. And then they would ask us whether force was used. Any restraints were being used. And they would see the returnees, take them to the bus and then they would go and we would go.

EC: And so, that was how mainly my job was planning the repatriation process, booking the aircraft, getting everything done, getting people on board, making sure no unnecessary force was used etc.

I: What airlines or what aircraft was used then?

EC: We used C1-3. A Hercules aircraft. I couldn’t remember which airline we used. It wasn’t Cathay. It was a Far East Air Company (FEAC). Someone called John Murphy, would know. John Murphy was with FEAC.

I: And do you remember how much?

EC: I can’t remember now.

I: I think Peter Choy mentioned that something like $1.5 million HKD per flight.

EC: Something like that.

I: And the crew were all provided by the FEAC?

EC: Yes.

I: And somebody mentioned to me that Cathay was used, so that must be the later days.

EC: Maybe. Because at one time, again I was lucky in a way – in one of the subsequent flights after I left the Security Branch, it went down the harbour. The aircraft came back from Hanoi without problems and took off from Kai Tak. But as it took off, it crashed and went into the sea.

I: Did anybody die?

EC: I think the pilots perished. Because of that, they may have later on engaged Cathay. But Cathay was actually engaged with voluntary flights. The voluntary flights used Cathay and Vietnam Airlines.

I: But the involuntary, forced ones were the ones you handled?

EC: That’s right.

I: And how often did you organise those flights? Once every few months?

EC: Once every two months, or once every month. I can’t quite remember now.

I: And about how many returnees from each flight approximately?

EC: Approximately about 30-40. Not too many people. The number of people that we could return to Vietnam would depend on whether they were accepted by the Vietnamese Government [or not]. So we sent them a list on a regular basis. And they would come back to us saying who the ones they could accept were. So the number of people who got sent back would depend on the clearance of the Vietnamese Government. So I think later on, the Vietnamese Government sent to Hong Kong a delegation to clear the number of returnees going back to Vietnam in order to speed up the process. SO I think later on, they would have the ORP once every month. But I can’t remember that now. At first, the numbers weren’t that great because the clearance was very slow. We would have to chase them, and the names. So the numbers actually at a later date began to increase.

I: So let’s say you would send the list to Hanoi, how long would it take for them to get back to you?

EC: It took them quite a while to come back to us.

I: Maybe months, weeks?

EC: Weeks and months I think. If I remember, the delegation actually came to interview the people, to make sure they got the names correct. Sometimes the names may not be right.

We routed through the British Embassy. And then the British Embassy would take the case to the Government and then it came back to us. I can’t remember exactly how long that took us. But at first, I think it took them quite a while to clear the lists.

I: Anything else that sticks in your mind?

EC: The only other impression I got was Tai A Chau camp. Tai A Chau was a very special camp that was specifically for the Southerners. The camp itself was a very leisurely camp, because it was far away from everything else. The people there were a lot more free that those in Whitehead or High Island or the others. They were able to swim in the sea, as the camp was more remote and less secured in a way. Although there was perimeter fencing, a lot of the people were able to have a swim whenever they wanted to. Because there was nothing there and it was miles away. That was the impression I got from visiting Tai A Chau. Whitehead was a lot more fortified. They had perimeter fencing [everywhere]. But a Vietnamese refugee would be able to climb a 30 foot fence within seconds. So you wouldn’t be able to catch them if they got out. So they needed two fences – an inner and outer fence. And in between there was a track. And the track was for bicycles. So if they couldn’t catch an escapee from the inner fence, they would still be able to catch them from the outer fence by using a bicycle. I was told they could get over a 30 foot fence within 5-30 seconds and then they were gone.

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Second Interview

I: I wanted to ask you, what did the whole experience [of working with the Vietnamese refugees] mean to you? Those three years of your job?

EC: Oh, it was tremendous. I think my job as an Administrative Officer; this was the hardest job I have ever come across. The pressure is so high and so big. You don’t want to leave your desk. Because once you leave your desk, there would be too many telephone calls for you to answer. [There would be] interviews from Newsweek, international problems etc. If it wasn’t the media, it was the lawyers. And if it wasn’t the lawyers, it would be the NGO’s. And if it wasn’t the NGO’s, it would be the camp management. They would want to seek a directive. It was pressure all the time. So you cannot afford to make mistakes, because otherwise it would appear in the news the next day, and it would make an international incident. So, for me, it was a very valuable experience of dealing with people, dealing with aspirations, dealing with expectations and also dealing with reality.

But it also allowed me to somehow have a feel of the American hypocrisy that, at that time, I really disliked. They disliked everything that we did. When they were trying to repatriate their illegal immigrants from Mexico, they didn’t even bother to tell the press! But what we did in Hong Kong, we involved everybody else. We tried to tell them we had nothing to hide; we tried to do it as humanely as possible and without any unnecessary force. And so, for me, it was a valuable experience in the international arena. And I got to see Vietnam! Basically, I went there a couple of times. At one time, I went with the Refugee Status Review Board, because the Review Board needed to look at Vietnam too. They needed to visit Vietnam and talk to the Authorities there to somehow acquaint themselves with the Vietnamese situation. So I went there with the Refugee Status Review Board, and I also went there on another occasion, just to speak with the Officials there. And one thing I didn’t tell you earlier was that we had to separate the Southerners and Northerners later on. Within the Northern provinces, we had to separate the [different groups]. If they were from Hai Phong and Quang Ninh, they had to stay on different sides. It was a very interesting time.

I: Did you know why they didn’t like each other? Could it be gangsters?

EC: I don’t know. It happens all the time. I think it’s a different culture. Even the Chinese, if you are from Southern China, our eating habits, out language is slightly different from Northern China. If you are from a province… we don’t really quite get on with the others from different provinces. They are very strange to us. It is the same thing, I suppose. Maybe, it’s more like America – the Hispanics don’t get on too well with the African Americans and the Asian Americans? Even within the same country, because the country is so big, you have different provinces. And each province would have its own particular way of living. And when you group them together, there are bound to be conflicts. I think this is something new to us. We had to separate them otherwise they would fight. Later on, the camps were divided [into the different provinces]. [It was] very interesting.

I: So when people mentioned the words ‘Vietnamese refugees’ what comes to your mind?

EC: Actually, have you ever read the book written by a refugee called, ‘Heaven and Earth’? I read that book, when I was doing the work with the refugees, and was very impressed by the way the author described Vietnam as it was then. ‘Heaven and Earth’ – it was made into a movie? So when you ask me about the impression I got of Vietnam, the first impression I got was from that book, [as] that book made a very strong impression on me. But otherwise, the impression I had was inevitably Hanoi, because I had never been to Saigon.

At a time when I went to Hanoi, it was still very backward then. As the aircraft went down, I saw a lot of fish ponds. And I was told, they were not fish ponds but bombed craters because of the American bombings which were so intensive in the Hanoi area. All the bomb craters were filled by water. So people would use them as a pond for fishing. So that was one impression that I got. But otherwise, I went to Quang Ninh, and it’s a very scenic place. [It was] a beautiful place. Its borders are very close to China, the South-West of China. It’s a very scenic place, a very rural country. But at the time, of course it was a very austere place. Now I suppose it’s getting a lot better.